Well as yet have checked the speaker/output transformer

it did work when last use years ago
but all caps look original and yeah thought not spewing (that I can see) the electros are in a bad state
one 8μF not sure on the other

I got heaps and heaps of photo's so I'll get a few up as soon as I get them of the camera and sort them

I am not so happy about the crud on the Mains Tranny...the windings look exposed (from manufacture I mean..) and of course gee 70 odd years of dust and grime exposed top I am not so happy about
unless theres some kind of potting? I am seeing with crap on it

it looks like that might be the case with shielded tranny as there is a thin wire coming for the core going on to the top in inner" E I" laminations bolt

I think i'll be defiantly fitting a mains fuse in this somehow
safety is far more important than authenticity


a few components got to deck on the chassis, so I am glad I asked about that Question of Earthing

sure its the 6G8G? in a round metal Can between the 2 square IF cans has for want of correct term an anode lead coming of it

anyway I'll see if I can give the speaker a test now

Update
Done
Yes Scratchy sound so output tranny is OK
well thus far
(at the cost of them I am happy)

update2

I think this has suffered the failure you might be referring to Marcc as the Output Transformer is dated in the 60's
that odd ball Cap I know would have been from around that period too

When the photos get loaded you'll see it

Actually the RF looks like it might be EK 82 ???? or 32
I'll get the photo posted

its on the base.... so not sure maybe its a date code... I didnt notice this till just now

A link on the EK 32
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ek32.html.
Seems to fit the bill...as far as looks


ok so I very gently got the cap & can off
the other tube is a 6G8-G

So EK32 (probably).... 6G8-G..... 6V6-G... &... 6X5-GT

is the line up as best I can tell

thanks

Monochrome625

WOW!!! that is an amazing Job!
I am sure I wont be the only one thanking you for that


PS
when the photos come up you'll see its in a sad state
the IF cans are probably going to be fun
(Id feel happier at possibly get a new transformer made but yeah $$$$... maybe I can find a suitable fender knock off but the 6X5 will probably stuff that idea up...anyway)

Thanks again for all you help everybody

Cheers

If it uses an EK32 it could be either a 11-4GZ (permag speaker) or a 11-4HZ (electro dynamic speaker). If the type markings have come off the valve there is still a way we can tell what type it is:-
http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf.

Got a photo coming when Brad gets the time..
(I'll email it to if you like)

it says Phillips "milliwatt" EK32 on the base of the tube

the 3 a bit smudged

Thanks for the Doc

PS
if it was stamped on the red shield paint only ... its long gone

actually on the speaker ..and oops I didnt include a shot DOH!
(now send Brad another so you can see it)

you can see part of it behind the Rec Valve

see photos above

that might give you a clue as to wast it is..cause I got no idea..it makes noses and for that at lest I am happy..

Electrodynamic speakers a quite distinct. Unlike the modern speakers with a permanent magnet, it will often have four to five wires, whereas, the permag will have two wires to the speaker transformer (if on speaker).

If the paperwork on the back of the electrodynamic is OK, then it will have a field coil resistance 1500 for 5" spkr 70-1 printed on it.

There will be circuit changes for EK2 (Octode) from 6J8 & ECH35 (Triode Hexode).

The paperwork I have seems clearer than what appears on Kevins site. I might send it to him.



Marc

Thanks Marcc

this thing from what little I can follow of it, if right is all over the place like a dogs dinner

The rectifier Heater if pin 7 is the other side goes to ground like straight to chassis

pin 2 of the 6V6 goes back to the rectifier 6X5 pin 2
sshh no wonder you weren't impressed with them
thought I think your were talking in relation to a 5Y3 rectifier, which is a different arrangement

I guess the wiring is different since there no 5 volt
winding and it all comes from the 6V3 for the heaters filaments

Current draw for the Heater of the 6X5 is 600 mA (0.6 Amp)

I haven't found were the other side of the 6V3 winding is
but seems it decked somewhere
----
Edit: Goes to Deck near were it pops through the grommet

Chassis is the Heater return path...rather interesting

---

on the Speaker ...there is a red and blue on the primary
and I see a green and black that seems to go the speaker coil..that not conclusive thought just form what I can see so it kind look like a single ended Audio amp stage

thats from what I know of guitar tube amps

its going to be a fun circuit to chase out

My biggest worry is that the main transformer thought maybe not cooked has been cooking well over time it appears

Gee dont you love the mounting "twisted metal"

Anyway this is looking more like rebuild then refurb

think I'll wait till the photos go up for your opinions on this puppy

EDIT
--------
Thanks Brad there up people

(and what Have I gotten myself into)
-------
long term project I think looking at it

looks like i'll be replacing most all of the caps and resistors...

but the big questions are on the transformer and IF cans
tuning gang too I suppose ..sure it works ok as far as plates go but travels not right

anyway enough for one night I think but thanks again for the help

Cheers

Observations:

Philips Octode so you need the mods for that.

It has paper caps, they have to go. The electrolytic's have to go

With a red block like that Magnavox its Permanent magnet, thats why that transformer looking thing in the middle of the pan, is a choke.

The disentry coloured cap should be ok but check it for cracks in its jacket.

The set was in the kitchen: That crap is stuck on with fat. Do not rub the number side of the dial. Vacuum cleaner & brush is a good start.

You can see that someone has had a go at it, by the new cap & the joints missing the green paint.

Definitely a shielded transformer.

Lever the grid clamp of by twisting a lever between it and the edge of the metal of the top cap to avoid removing the cap at the glass also lever assist valve removal rather than put stress on the glass to base bond. critically important with the metalised valve.

Thanks Marc

I'll get back to you soon
just got to go out.


Back

oh opps Mod yes please were do I find them ?


OK yeah the output transformer is a replacement
as is the Cap I think you talking about across the 6V6

I am sure it suffered the fail mode you referred to sometime in the mid 60's

still for the price of a cap it can go too


I did think about levering out the EK32
but thought I might crack the base so as gently as possibly in a circular motion on the base worked it out

Sadly as to be expected with vavles 70 odd years old

even thought I gently used a flat head screw driver to remove the Cap connector..it seem well designed to take the pressure of and raise the connector at the same time...

I was pinning the cap to the tube with my finger, still the glue gave way

it still attached just loose

So Question if you dont mind
what is the best or safest way to reattach the cap and bases of Valves?

Sorry for yelling Id use colour but no option for that

I've read clear Nail polish and a zillion other ideas too


the base of the 6G8G and 6V6 think also the 6X5 have l broken loose ...I was kinda expecting that anyway
even thought all due care was used
(I am well aware of not using the bottles to pull them)

I am trying to get replacements for the RF IF vales anyway but hens teeth might be easier to find as new

got a 6X5 coming (just in case) and 6V6s are not a problem really

At the moment trying to document what connects were for future reference...photos are good but so much is hidden and get a part list together

still I do have many questions

My biggest worry is what the best way to go wit the IF Cans..?

leave them alone and just heat shrink and maybe humm put some sleeving stuff over the wire that goes to the 6G8G or are they possible to rebuild...? with out too much hassle...doubt after all this time they'd be adjustable if need be

Ditto the mains transformer

I was thinking of heat shrinking and ..whats it call spaghetti tubing? the wires for safety

Aslo of possibly removing it and giving it a light wire brushing of the E I Core and painting it with black enamel engine paint (and after giving it a work out that is)
there is corrosion and EI laminations dont work too well as one big metal mass
yes a tentative move to stave off something I know

I know some times things are best left alone and sure thats my worry... the fragility of everything with this after 70 odd years

I dont want to touch the top of the coils for fear of losing any enamel and the it would be all over red rover for that tranny if I get shorted turns


=========================================

I Have Edited out the info here for anybody that may have read it before...would only confuse the Situation leaving it in

I have now done some chasing out and discovered probably what killed the set

First off, there are 2 X 8μF Electrolytic Capacitors rated at 600V Ducons

**
THIS ABOUT "PI" IS QUITE WRONG PLEASE READ MARC's COMMENT BELOW ITS IMPORTANT
WRONG The configuration as near as I can tell is a PI Filter of the 6X5 Rectifier Valve WRONG
**
I suppose 2 X 10 μF 500 V will do the Job but I truly need to check the Transformer Voltages and even if it still works

Now the Big Clanger

Under the bottom cap it appears there was a heater wire, it look as if it was shorting to the Chassis
(it was the feed from 6V6 to the 6X5, Transformer goes to the 6V6 first... if memory serves)

Since the Chassis was the return path for the 6V3 Heater winding I am guessing "its good night Irene" for the Transformer

nothing like a short circuited winding to spoil your Day

Sadly no fuses in this thing
====================================

lastly.... thought I haven't checked the Docs, But it looks like there has been some work on the EK32 socket...green paint missing and the 100K (I think) is not as old the other resistors

Anyway this is proving to be quite a learning experience for me, Thanks people

I now think the Kriesler is a model 11-4GZ. When restoring I'd restore as per the 11-4GZ if you were to keep with the EK32 . The circuit will be based on the one posted here with changes as per notes on the 11-4GZ. I see from the photos that the bias resistor is 275 ohms. The notes on the 11-GZ say 250 ohms (R138) for power transformer type 18-6 or 400 ohms for P.T. type 18-32.

Valves are repairable. There is an article by Peter Lankshear on valve repairs. Unfortunately I no longer have this article.

ATTENTION Brad, if you see this can you please put the link here for TV Collectors Kriesler 11-4 Technical Instructions PDF. Thanks.

http://vintage-radio.com.au/default.asp?f=2&th=228.

This thread?
~ Brad.

Monochrome625

I suspected it might well be till I looked and seen it had possibly been reworked on the EK32 socket

I know for sure it has been serviced in the 60's to fix what I guess was blown output transformer

all bets are off at the moment, found a heater wire has shorted to chassis and so maybe the transformer is cactus...at best its been getting very very toasty

TV Collectors Kriesler 11-4 Technical Instructions PDF. Thanks.

Read more: http://vintage-radio.com.au/default.asp?f=2&th=448&offset=3.

if thats the 14 page Doc listed changes, I think it already linked in the thread on page one and I do have it mate but thanks

if the Valves were ok and I am sure they were its just mechanical issues with them..dried glue and bases lose ...of course how well used they are thats another story

may main concern now is if the transformer is salvageable

Do you know off hand what voltage the secondary AC is for the 6X5 version?

really I think if its been cooking... its high risk anyway but humm

Thanks mate


PS theres a bee up for Auction at ebay at the moment
I think its form the same seller I seen one go with for $400

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STUNNING-VINTAGE-1946-DECO-KRIESLER....

not that mines for sale but it will be interesting to see were this one lands

2010 under one $100 now there asking 200~300 on some auction sites

I have renta wreck on the way I paid too much for but well I really wanted to get this one going...Family keep sake...So I'll see what the guts is like in it...case isn't so good thought...maybe I can marry the two

Mine dont shine like that one above but maybe in time
(when I figure out how )

Cheers

Transformer failures are rare here, and they will take a bit of abuse, unlike some of the American ones.

Albeit I have a tester of some vintage, I would not be shotgunning and buying valves to replace those that you have no idea of being faulty. More often than not, it is that around the valves that dies.

You will get away with 450V caps but a lot of them are in my opinion crap & do not filter well. I have yet to have issues with EVATCO 500V. 10μF is OK those things had a pretty wild tolerance range. 6X5 is a heater valve & develops B+ slowly, unlike 5Y3.

Filter is a capacitive input filter with trap for the unwary. The first filter cap is not earthed as the set is back biased via R157 & R102. The centre tap is floating and the first cap neg goes to it: Beware.

50K (47K); 500K (0.5M) (470K); & 100K in those have an attrition rate. Check all of them.

Slow (high strength) Araldite & tape is the answer to the loose top & base. I normally unsolder the top clean it & the wire (scrape whilst supporting & make sure it's tinned), make sure there is a 1mm hole for the grid wire & it all fits, then wipe a bit of Araldite on the glass & inside the base of the cap & solder quickly.

As the slow Araldite will not have set, run some around the cleaned top of the base in a few spots & wrap insulation tape around it to stop it escaping.

Panicking before testing does not promote good Karma unless you do some tests on it, you do not know the transformer has failed. Obviously it governs the viability of repair.

One of the 6V windings is earthed anyway albeit they both may go to a valve socket first & go their separate ways from there. We do not know if the short has been powered (or do we?). Testing the transformer is another post as this is getting long.

There has been banter on the circuit & mods what have you so far? What metering, even insulation testing have you got?

The 6X5GT heaters go to the 6.3 volt tap along with the other valves. According to the notes the H.T. voltage on either side of the centre tap is 250 V. for P.T. 18-32 and 220 V. for P.T. 18.6.

Due to the wire state I would prefer to see the continuity tested first on the primary and on the secondary.

6.3V winding in view of the fact it may be shorted, I would like to see disconnected making sure the disconnected end does not ground. Pins 2&7 should be heaters

Normally a shorted transformer will growl. Leaving the 6X5 out stops it generating B+

With inexperience and the transformer not mains wired I need more info as wiring & powering it, is getting into the nasty stuff and wire condition matters.

Thanks Marc

Actually the Valves are a just in case & well NOS can only get more expensive & harder to find so hedging for the future...really

on the Transformer..please yes By all means another thread is good and fine...do you want me to start one?

I dont mean to sound so pessimistic just really concerned
I do put premium on safety thats all

I have an odd feeling it might have survived but till I get a chance to test it... I wont know

the wire thought was definitely toast... it had shorted to the transformer twisted fixing under the second electro cap right beside the choke... if you look you'll see the cooked wire in the photos above

From what I can tell Marc there is only one wire doing the loop to pin 2...... pin 7 seem to go straight to the chassis somewhere near each valve socket as does the other wire from the transformer

Edit just read you post Marc after posting the below anyway
*****************************************************
OK just did some continuity~resistance checks
*
HV secondary to center tap read about 350 & 370 Ohms
across the full I get 715 Ohms

on what is the Secondary 6V3 winding... I am reading about 0.5 ohms
I isolated the heater wire by cutting them so that should be the winding resistance Only (left the other side soldered to the chassis)

did forget to add the primary but

Thats 55 Ohms the 240V Tap
(220V is 50 Ohms)

Test for continuity (as in isolation) between windings and there is none ...thought thats not a conclusive test at all I suppose with a low voltage multimeter

further

Disconnected all the HV winding off cap off 6X5 Socket no continuity to 6V3 winding


PS Marc Well aware of Dangers 240 Volts

I am going to pull it I think anyway...
(Just hope I dont break a tab)

I'll throw a lamp in series and run it via an isolation transformer first up

this got lost a bit from the edit but on thinking about heater winding

That seems low to me but then again I have no idea with Valve heater windings...still they usually need to provide 2 amps or more at a low voltage so it may well be OK ?
(since you really dont want high resistance in a high current circuit...ideally 0 from your source)

At this point the only Question Mark I suppose is the Heater winding
(apart from possibly break down issues Voltage)

(but yeah I'll give it a test under a load, once I work out what might be the right juice to pull of it)

the above edited and updated ***

*********************************************************

gee I am a dummy... I was rushing and did note that floating Center tap connection on the top Electro cap as I was drawing it out & thought "how strange"..... then forgot about it as I was trying to chase the rest ...cause there were two caps on either side of the choke..I then assumed PI filter DOH! ...then I discovered the Heater wire after I cut the bottom electro cap out (to get is value)... which really got me thinking else were

OK I really got to digest what you said above in regard to the PSU set up ..its not you at all... its my lack of knowledge here with Valve circuits...and it seems there a lot of skull duggery that could be done to achieve objectives.....with Valves

On the Caps yeah they have some that are cheap and the F&T's (I think it is) which are quite pricey

Seems with Valve enthusiasts for Guitar thats the go for them
I am not opposed to paying the price if the quality there

I dont like cheap Caps at all Id use something like panasonic or nichicons etc if I do something in repair

Really you want something that going to last awhile
(especially in the VRM of older Computer motherboards)

Thank you so much for the tip on the Valve repair
I'll see if I can get some

late here..... I am off to bed...... but thank

Please stop doing things in haste: It is not productive.

At this point I see no valid reason for pulling the transformer out, and I fail to see what was to be gained by cutting off the HV secondary wires? If the wires are dodgy they can likely be sleeved, or replaced with the transformer in situ.

Once the rectifier is pulled, the plates are isolated & the HV and continuity can be tested. That is why I only said heater winding. The other thing, if you dare remove the transformer is to make sure which is mains common and the tap that was connected too mains.

I don't want a new post just one post in this one devoted to testing the transformer.

There is something odd about that black patch on the ground from pin 7. make sure that you do not have that wire broken at the chassis,or its a dry joint. Not exactly what I would expect from a short.

Normally I would insulation test to make sure the primary has no earth leakage of concern, at this point. What you have to be careful of is "jelly" wire going through the grommets and shorting there.

Marc

Does the power transformer have a separate 6.3 volt tap for the 6X5GT, or is it just a single 6.3 volt heater tap for all of the valves & dial lamps?